HiveMinds

[single]

Since it seems like we have a lot of payment issues lately, here is another one from me.

My regular rate for anything I do is $50/hour. Now, naturally I have come across clients who I know cannot afford to pay $50/hour. Also, looking around this board, I see that even $50/hr is pretty low.

Anyhow, what do to in such a situation. Tell the client you are sorry? or charge them what they can pay, which can be anywhere from 12/hr-35/hr? In this case you are naturally running the risk that the client will get used to the 12/hr-35/hr rate and I really hate telling people they will have to pay more in the future.

What to do?

Ich bin der Single! Being a programmer is all about the small victories!

[Richard C.]

Customers will often try to pay you less - my advice is to find some others, or just add some hours to the account so that your rate is the same.

If you start low, you'll stay low: start high, and then you can give discounts, or at best, get clients that prepared to pay real money.

- Sole proprietor of "Ye Olde Webbe Desyne Shoppe".

[Guest]

The rate of $50/hour is high-low depending on the situation. I'm more on network admin side. For clients that require less than 8 hours of my time, I charge $150-$250/hr.

But, when I see there is tons of work, typically more than 200 hours, I have gone as low as $45/hour. But never lower. It also depends on the living expense (the area). The $45/hour is in a small town of population 1000. No traffic light. So, the client thinks $45 is too high. When the relationship gets better, I told them a plumber in where I live charge $65 hour (indirectly hinting of course).

I say like "this week I've been trying to get somebody to mow my lawn. Used to be high school kids would do it at $5 bucks/hr. But now, most of them are $40/hr." But you don't say this while discussing rate. You do it casually, at lunch or something. And they usually see the light.

But, sometimes, you also need to see hidden benefits carefully. How the project looks in your portfolio? How about, putting that "designed by me" at the bottom of page? If they are sending me 1M page hits a month, hell, I would even do it for free. How about branding? At one time, in a small town, I've done a website for a local Domino's Pizza site. I got paid $20 bucks a page, including Flash, CGI, Forms, Webmail, Statistics, Own Email Accounts. Go figure. I think if I'm not fast, my hourly wage would have ended up about $2/hour. But, it's worth it. So, I made all the pages very short and small. Spent two days and got $500 (25 pages) for it. Not bad. If you want to look at it, it's at [url]http://www.pittsburgdominos.com[/url].

But, after that, I went and pulled half the town's businesses (worth about $50K) using that Domino's site. 2/3 of the town is Domino's customers.

However, I told Domino Store my intention honestly. The reason I could go so low is because I'm intending to use them and get hookup with other businesses in town. If the potential (return) is not good, I cannot afford to do it at that rate. I also print them out a list of prices around the web. So, they understand, the rate is for initial project only, while building the relationship. Besides, having a Dominos Pizza (or Pizza Hut), even a small one, on your client list is worth it.

Hope that helps.

[C]

It also is going to depend on the country locale. Here in sweden the dollar is 1/10. So $45 would be 450:- sek/hr, which would be 72,000:-sek per month. This is an unbelievably high wage for this country. 25,000:-sek is high also which translates to 157:-sek/hr about $15/hr. This is too low though by professional standards so I base myself on the fact that I usually have to do the work of three people, a designer, a developer and a project manager. Everybody has to get paid so I get to about $45/hr.

BTW, Anyone notice that we are talking about wages? Something absolutely forbidden at the Buzz. Sniff*** you can smell the freedom!

Carl McDade
-------------
heroforhire.net
"luck favors prepared minds"
_________________
I was annoyed by the fact that God was testing my atheism by sending aliens to my door to ask for proof of his existence.
hiveminds.co.uk

[Guest]

quote:

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Everybody has to get paid so I get to about $45/hr.

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Well, I'm sure the living expense in Sweden is quite low. My birth country (Burma), people's salaries are like $15 per month! One time I was in eLance, I saw guys bidding ecommerce sites for $3/hr (I think some guys from India). And yes sir, their portfolio is among the best I've ever seen. So, I gave up going there. It is not feasible in US with this rate . I might as well go wash dishes.

quote:

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BTW, Anyone notice that we are talking about wages? Something absolutely forbidden at the Buzz. Sniff*** you can smell the freedom!

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Oh? I didn't know that. Well, I was pretty much a lurker there anyway. I don't see why they forbid it. Salary surveys are published all the time. It is also very good to have a sense on what the average is. Then we can charge the clients quite reasonably.

[Richard C.]

Hey Carl - SEK 450 an hour is dead cheap. The last palce I worked, my work was charged at DKK 1400, and working for myself, I charge DKK 680 an hour for starters - if I can't offer a fixed rate that's higher (because the work's already done).

Nobody expects a freelancer to work 40 hrs/week (and get paid for it) - and there are a number of benefits like sick pay, holiday pay, insurance, etc etc that you have to take care of yourself.

Just my €0.02 worth...

- Sole proprietor of "Ye Olde Webbe Desyne Shoppe".

[single]

well, the client I am thinking about is paying me $20/hr for straight forward HTML work. Not even JavaScript involved. However, I am trying to talk him into PHP stuff that I know he needs. But, it will look very bad if I try talking him into something he did not even want fromt he begining and then tell him he has to pay me more for it than he is paying me now, but I am not planning on doing PHP and DB stuff for less then $35.

When we started talking he mentioned he had many friends who also owned businesses who really needed updated site (according to him). I saw this as a hint from him he would be willing to put me in touch with them. I guess I can maybe strike a deal with him that I can charge him $25 or so per hour if I his friends would be interested in a similar solution I want him to get.

Ich bin der Single! Being a programmer is all about the small victories!

[C]

Richard,

There is a point here where it gets touchy. One of the reasons for the dot.com fiascos was exploded salary definitions. It also hindered growth of small business on the net. So comparing previous or present corporate salaries to what is viable should not be done.

For now freelancers can get 40-45/hour but that rate will be 25/hr within the next year or so. It a supply and demand issue. The demand has fallen and the supply is still growing. While companies are still moving towards IT they are not willing to pay IT people more than what they pay others on the work force.

Carl McDade
-------------
heroforhire.net
"luck favors prepared minds"
_________________
I was annoyed by the fact that God was testing my atheism by sending aliens to my door to ask for proof of his existence.
hiveminds.co.uk

[single]

Does that mean I should forget about getting my full $50?

Ich bin der Single! Being a programmer is all about the small victories!

[Richard C.]

Just take what you can get, dude - if it's $50, then cool. If not, do as Carl says and adjust.

- Sole proprietor of "Ye Olde Webbe Desyne Shoppe".

[C]

I just read in the local paper that an information seller will be laying off people. But they will be hiring more IT professionals to take their place. I wonder what kind salaries they will be offering. Since they are dealing in information the jobs more than likely will be in database operations. The average salary for this one horse town is 17,000sek/mo. = 1700 usd. This means if I accept a job with them I would be taking about 2,000usd/mo with benefits, to be a DBA.
It's sad state of affairs.

Carl McDade
-------------
heroforhire.net
"luck favors prepared minds"
_________________
I was annoyed by the fact that God was testing my atheism by sending aliens to my door to ask for proof of his existence.
hiveminds.co.uk

[Guest]

The Domino's site you created is very professional, a very nice showcase site for your portfolio given the name of the company.

Sometimes its good to get a feel for the company your working for. I've found that the company can be small, but the owner can be a real people person that knows everyone. If you can do a good site for this type of person, the rewards can be reaped well into the future.

Find the influential talkers of your town, sell to them.

[SoopahMan]

Talking payrates: That wasn't forbidden at the Buzz, it was more "do so at your own risk." The issue was cloudy to them, and their main concern was CNet getting sued because Builder Buzz might be a place where price-fixing was occurring. US law says that consultants may not discuss rates with the intent of price-fixing, as it's anti-competitive (part of anti-trust laws). I gathered this from discussions there; I Am Not A Lawyer.

So, now that the "concern" is lifted, I'll openly state I'm making $48k/year here at work now. I don't know what that means in the grand scheme of things. I know that there are developers out there doing similar things to what I do making a lot more, but then I also know that I enjoy my job an awful lot, something many cannot say. I also know that what I do mostly revolves around what I choose to do, and that happens to be mostly UI and Javascript, with an increasing amount of Java to keep me challenged. I know a lot of people don't get that either. And, with the failing economy, I increasingly feel lucky to have employment whatsoever... .

[visvam]

Here is a link to an article that discusses the process of setting your rates - http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/ratesFAQ.html I found it to be extremely helpful. It contains specific advise for web developers using formulas and standards used in other professions (lawyers, accountants, etc..).

I am personally struggling to determine which direction to take myself these days. I am about to lose my job and thought I had another lined up, until they finally told me how much they were willing to pay. Should I eat humble pie and accept the offer or attempt to strike out on my own and start my own web development business?

If C is right:

quote:

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For now freelancers can get 40-45/hour but that rate will be 25/hr within the next year or so.

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I might be better off with the job.

[single]

Awsome article Visvam, thanks!

Ich bin der Single! Being a programmer is all about the small victories!